For those who might be interested...
Video of the Brittanys in Competition at Westminster is now online.
Winner again this year is Ch. Castle's Tangerine Dream "Tango"
owners: Ned & Betty Castillo of California.

Also on the Video is the Brittany from Mexico that won the World Show.
Handler is Juan Mirranda (Brown Suit) compare him to the others in competition and you can get an appreciation of why I had posted what I did of him when I saw him in Mexico. He is rather long compared to the Winner today.

http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/ ... oid=216825

P.S. - Judge is from Australia (country that uses FCI Standards)

super video

Superbe vidéo, mais quelle est cette race

Well....it is the Non-roan, over groomed version of the Brittany in light body weight especially in females. Dog are never shown Fat in the USA.
Every one of the dogs presented have an OFA Hip Certification on record.
The kind of Brittany that "Show" judges around the world seem to prefer over the France type of dog it seems...many which look more like the dogs of the 1946 show in Rennes, France. So I guess American dogs are "Old Style" not modern France type.

Roans are not popular in American "show dog" programs...you see mostly Roans in the Field Trials in the back yards of hunters..

Canada will not even let you register a Black and White dog as a Roan or a Tricolor as a Roan if it is so marked! You cannot even register a Liver Tricolor as such it must be called a Parti-color....Ask Mr. Campbell why this has never been fixed in all these years in Canada??? USA Allows registration of Black Roans and Tri Roans. Canada's standard for a time used to specify that excessive ticking was undesirable. So who knows what the importers of the time was thinking about the breed.

I can understand why Canada's pedigrees were restricted from FCI when the dogs cannot be registered their correct color.

Thank you for sending this video clip of Westminster.What strikes me most is: the difference in handling the dogs so fast round the ring, " stacking" them and mostly "stringing" them up by the neck which is clipped, and makes it appear long.I see lots of holding the neck in that position in the Dog Papers from other countries. Can't say I like it!!
The colour clear, rather than some roans also less seen in the UK,the grooming...Maybe someone will post something from Crufts where it is so very different.
Hope the fashion does not start having such ways of showing gundogs!
Patricia

In Canada, all colors can be registred, White Orange, White Liver, White Black, Tricolor Liver, Tricolor Black,... all colors. But only the White Orange and White Liver can enter the CKC show rings. And the WO have to have a light nose, not black or dark at all.

For me, it is completely different breed compared to the Épagneul Breton we see in all Europe. The structure of the dog is completely different, very straight forehand and very angular rearhand. The head is different, the expression is different. It is a lot more than only the grooming or the colors, it is all the structure.

It is a different way to select dogs. It is completely disconnected to the working abilities of the breeds. If the selection is different, no surprise to see a different breed.

Actually CKC will not let a Liver Tricolor be listed as Roan.
Also a Black & White cannot be listed as roan.

They go unmentioned according to Leila Bahorie at CKC.
Liver Tricolor is listed as Parti-colored.
They do not have a listing for Parti-Colored Roan for Liver Tri Roan.
So basically the tracking of Roan gets lost on CKC pedigrees.
And it seems you have a choice for a Solid Orange and a Solid Liver
under CKC. Leila gave all the approved color choices for "Brittany Spaniels"....

Yes it is well known that Black pigment is not accepted in CKC shows or AKC shows. These are the only 2 countries in the world that refuse black pigment. Although many AKC judges are now getting versed in Darker pigmented noses and seeing more of the other colors shown to them under UCI and presenting them with magazines of the CEB. Communication and education helps....
Also unfortunate that "fads" dictate the direction of breeders only interested in winning in the show ring. But this seperation between show and work goes worldwide for many breeds....it is the mentality of the "show" owners who do not also take working function into consideration, as well as the Field only who trial their out of size dogs as well. But at least in the field all colors are represented.

The over grooming started in the late 1960's and I doubt it will ever go back to minimal grooming. I do make it a point to have available my "french type" dogs when judging seminars are nearby and I can help out. You would be pleasantly surprised at the favorable remarks made, especially by the older judges.

Very good points made here...Like David, I find the rear angulation over done and it makes them" drive" from the rear.Unlike the " clipped" gait we expect in the UK( in good specimens I will add). We look for a straight line from the buttocks to the hock and down. Many are not in the video.
Shame about the presentation,the Breton should only need light tidying up, straight from the field onto the bench!
Patricia

Yes, the CKC has a strange list of color codes. Yes, the roan is not easy to keep on the records. But I don't know any registry with no errors about the colors. It is always a problem in each registry. Even in France, many dogs do not have to right description of their color on the LOF.
In the CKC I use the code that match the best the color of my pups. It is not always perfect, but we do what we can with what we have.

It is a shame to focus only on one aspect of the breed. In USA and Canada, I think we can see the "ultimate" splits within many breeds. It is a real shame. For me, having an show champion EB without any hunting abilities is a shame, having a FT champion out of the standard, it is also a shame. To do not care about the health is also a shame. If we want to develop a good breed, we have to work on all aspects of the dogs.

The French CEB is strong and work hard on all aspects of the breed. We have to do similar things in our country to preserve the breed.

Bonjour à tous,

Thank you Goldie for bringing this video to our attention. I definitely think that these Bretons are penalized by the excessive grooming, that gives them this awful long necked looks. Judges in these events seem to be obsessed with «movement» and will often neglect other very important aspects of the dog. I was wondering how is movement judged in FCI and/or European show rings? Is it a more static approach? I also feel it is deplorable to see that placements are based on fad and trends, the classic stereoptype being the flashy piebald orange and white. I guess some judges would not have enough guts (or knowledge of the breed as a matter of fact) to place anything else than this stereotype. A few decades back, jdges would place excellent roans and livers, but not anymore it seems.

Nevertheless, I think some of the Bretons in this video still display strong points. They are not all «long backed» nor «straight front» and some have a Breton rounded head, although many display an awful etherial sighthound typed head (see 5:22 of the video). I would say that the head at 7:08 of the video is quite «bretonne». Also 7:49 and 7:27 display a deep chest down to the elbow (of course these video takes might be misleading). Most of these show lines are long backed beacause of the stereotyped gate these judges are looking for (they need the extra reach). This is blameworthy, but at the opposite end, some European subjects display an excessively short loin and a «croupe en pupitre» that would prevent the dog from moving freely in the field, especially if, moreover, it is plagued with an excessively rounded chest that would hinder its movement in the front (such a Breton would look like a rocking horse while covering ground).

Finally, upon looking at some of the dogs in this video, I agree with you, Goldie, that «many which look more like the dogs of the 1946 show in Rennes, France. So I guess American dogs are "Old Style" not modern France type.» As a matter of fact, if you look at all the Bretons imported in North-America from France in the 30s and 40s, and that are the foundation stock for the Brittany on this continent (see pictures of Aoutrou de Cornouailles that belonged to Al Andy http://www.michiganbrittany.com/Ady/al_ady_archives.htm , the first American Brittany Club president), you will notice that it is absolutely evident that these «original» dogs were very different in type than what is currently seen in Europe. So much for the «drift» theory...

Well I can't remember from the video clip Goldie posted here( Rennes show) too many which looked like the dog on your link!
Irrelevant of the changes, the Breton is a " Cob" and in that sense has a short back.And having seen them running in France and UK I cannot see many hindered by their cobbiness. Far from it!
The Westminster video shows a type whether old or not which no longer looks like the one in the country of origin.The movement I suspect is altered by the angulation at the rear. imo.
Don't most countries from the world follow French directive?
Patricia

Some images captured from the video -






best of breed on left

These are from the Westminster Video?
Thanks Guy.

These are simply your typical American Brittany Show dogs.
Nothing special nor unique; quite prevalent all over the USA---not Bretons, sorry.

And to say that these type of Dogs seen in the Rennes Show Video are the original EBs and shows the USA has the real ones is simply false.
A wild imagination!

I have been to the EB Museum in Callac and witnessed first hand the photo that arises in that Video and is referenced by Stuyvesant.
The dogs that are good dogs in that Photo are the VERY SAME EBs as we see today.

Yes there are some examples exactly like the ones we see in these pictures and they probably came to the USA right after THAT show

There are good examples in any Show and not so good ones, too-----even at Rennes.

Who pays any attention to a Show Dog from the USA?
Even the American Brittany was SPLIT a long time ago into Show, Horseback Field Trial and Hunting Dogs.
We American people know that.
You do not really believe that the majority of the Brittany Show Dogs are hunted or field trialed, do you?

No.

Greg

Exactement.

Nous appelons ceci un Brittany aux Etats-Unis.
Nous ne sommes pas certains ce qui est il.

On le trouve dans quelques pays d'expression anglaise l'aboutent est rare dans le monde.

Certains le préfèrent au français l'Epagneul Breton.

Greg

Here is a little reality check - this illustration is out of Munsch, L'Epagneul Breton, published in 1937.

I fail to follow the argument that the American is the preservation of the 'old type' French Brittany.



and a head shot from the same book.


Perhaps some of the differences are only fur deep??? -- from a grooming article...
before and after

full article on how to make this transformation - sorry but it does not say how you fix the tail on http://www.brittanygrooming.com/

Nice.
Good, Guy.
Yes Reality is hard to dispute---but some can try, such is Life.

Greg

I want to thank Guy for letting me borrow this wonderful little book from Mieur Munsch. I have " digested it" and here are some comments.
1907 standard.Loin: that has not changed: Short, broad, strong. (Ditto for 1923 standard) Croup-interesting- slightly sloping, not straight. Chest, deep.Angulation:Vertical line from buttocks to hock. And that is a difference with some Westminster exhibits, where the angulation is more pronounced.
Colour: seem to desire some roaning.
On size: it was then 45 to 50 cms for the height:Though the author thinks this is a mistake for the bitches as being too small, they have a " toy" type" and lack bone. Therefore, they should be about 48 cms.Or they will resemble" little rats!"
Colour: Liver and white was the most common colour:Nevertheless, the Black is at the origin of the Breton but was thought undesirable because maybe showing crosses with English dogs.You could find Black coming from breeding stock very close to the primitive type in the remote Brittany countryside.
Pigment: the nose was either dark brown or pink: yet, in most Orange & White hounds, a dark pigment and black nose was sought after. Again, a worry about those dreaded crosses!
In a paragraph on pigment..." The breeder will avoid buying dogs with
light eyes, light pink nose, and with a washed out coloured coat, if he wants to avoid a subject short of nose qualities,not very intelligent,and not very resistant. He will not breed with those subjects as they will become degenarate."
These are extracts from this little book. Quite a while ago now, the US standard maybe needs to move with the time?
Patricia

Wow.
Very interesting comments, Patricia.
Good of you to offer the Comparisons.
Very good.

So this Book is a gem for historical purposes.
Greg

Who is saying that «USA has the real ones»?

Personally, I have fought in the past, as an officer of the CEB Quebec, and will fight in the future to see the standard of the country of origin recognized by our national organization, i.e. the CKC. However, I disagree with those who propose splitting the breed by claiming that the north american EB has «drifted from the original version». The sketch from Mr. Munsch is very interesting and represents an ideal model towards which our breeding should be oriented. However, this sketch shows a dog that is more leggy than the current EB, and as a matter of fact, its head is quite different than that of Troll du Sulon, l’épagneul breton du centenaire du CEB (as rightly stated by jb => «Sa tête correspond-elle vraiment à ce que décrit le standard de l'EB, en particulier au niveau des lèvres?»), which goes to show that even the best EB does not fit perfectly in Mr Munsch's sketch...

As for the EB seen in the video from Renne show, I would like to know which ones do look like Mr. Munsch's model (just state the timing on the video)...

Also, about your sarcastic statement «Yes there are some examples exactly like the ones we see in these pictures and they probably came to the USA right after THAT show », what exactly are you suggesting? That at that time, French breeders were sending their lesser dogs? Or if you are saying that from 1935 to the mid 40s, the USA Brittanies had already drifted into a different breed, I would like to know how this can happen in such a short period...

Robert,

I think you need to read the FCI standard and the Jean Louvet's book about the actual standard and the history of the FCI standard. When you say you want to respect the FCI standard, but in the same message you doubt about the qualities of the "Nationale d'élevage du Centennaire" 's winner, do you really want to respect the FCI standard? At least, try to respect the decision of many French CEB long experience judges.

If you read a bit about the history in USA, you'll find that Mr Allaire (a French EB expert judge) did go to judge in USA in 1948 or 1949... and he did accept to comment only 4 or 5 dogs, all from recent import in USA. All others were very far away from the FCI standard for him. We are 60 years after that event... so it is not new... the AB in North America is different to the EB in Europe for a long time. The only new thing is the fact some people from both sides of the ocean travel to see what there are the other side of the pond and they realize the dogs in Europe are very different to the dogs in America. More and more people travel and discover the obvious differences.

At least, the grooming example shows us the AKC standard is very different to the FCI ones. The transformations done by the grooming are totally at the opposite of the FCI standard. This grooming enhances the faults of the dog and hide many qualities of the dog... It is very strange to do it. It is obvious people doing such grooming do not know what is the FCI standard of the EB.

I am sure we can scan some more photos from Mieur Munsch's book which also has an input from Mieur Kermadec. Personnaly, I have seen dogs now in France which look like the drawing. It fits in square and is a " Cob". As regarding the picture shown as an example of an American show dog, I prefer the Hairy version!
Patricia

Sorry, I really did not mean to offend any «éminence grise». I was just making a simple statement that seems obvious (as already brought up by jb in the forum), but maybe here, in North-America, we are used to speak our mind too openly, without giving enough thought to protocol and hierarchy...

I agree with you that the grooming is awful on these USA show dogs, and just like Patricia, I do prefer the hairy version.

I also want to thank Guy for choosing this excellent illustration of Gwennec de l'Argoat, which was one of the foundation EB in the USA. As stated in Maxwell Riddle's book, Gwennec was imported in USA by Louis A. Thebaud (mid 30s), who went annually to France, where he divided his time between an apartment in the Rue Spontini, Paris and a sea coast home at St-Briac Bretagne. Mr Thebaud was a close friend to René Joubert, also one of the pioneers of the breed in the US. As a matter of fact, Gwennec is out of Aoutrou de Cornouaille, and a close relative of Aotrou Mac Eochaidh belonging to Al Ady, firs president of the American Brittany Club


Obviously, most of these early French imports in the USA would not fit in Mr Munsch's sketch, as they were longer and on the high side of the standard (some being evidently more than 50 cm). At that time, the EB was somewhat more setterized I guess, and this has been improved over the years thanks to the FCI standard. Back then, that was the EB type, but it is unfair to say that the north-american Brittany has «drifted away from the original type». It is just unfortunate that there has not been sufficient exchanges between European and North-American breeders after World War II, but that is no reason to try and split the breed to worsen the situation.

One of the few early US imports that did show the type illustrated by Mr Munsch was Fanche du Cosquerou, but it was a true exception.

Finally, in my view, Mr Munsch's sketch shows a much too leggy Breton (a fault generally associated with the current AB), as if one draws the usual «cob» square, one gets more of a rectangle (higher than wide). But maybe this is just an optical illusion.

Robert:

"...the real ones..."?

If you will visit the Yahoo FB/EB List you can read for yourself comments by American Brittany people who will say that the USA has the true original Brittany and thet the CEB France actually has changed the dog and the Standard and the American Brittany Club has never changed the Standard and has never changed the EB they received.
Thus the American dog is the true Brittany.
Many believe this in the USA and a few will even say it in Public!

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/fren ... =121299161

I will try to scan and Post the group Photograph of the Show in Rennes ---it is part of the Video.
It is also in the Book by Herve Bourdon, do you have that book?
That photo is in the Museum in Callac; about 10 by 15 inches tall.
If you look you can see dogs that are leggier, that have a head that has planes that are not parallel, fronts and rears that do not have the correct angles ....many of the type of parts that one sees today in most Brittanys in the USA and Canada.
These dogs are on the right side of the Photo, mainly.
And you can also see excellent EB dogs in the middle and the left in the Rennes photo.

So I was seriously speculating (and trying a JOKE!) that many of the dogs originally imported to the USA were of not the excellent EB type.

It is very likely.
No one sells the BEST dog to some one else.

And so the Americnas who obviously did not go to France in the beginning of their Breed, the Brittany Spaniel, could only rely on the dogs they saw in the USA and thus never knew for certain (except Stuyvesant and a few others) what the BEST Bretons should look and act and hunt like!

Possible.

Greg

Robert,

Maybe you need to visit some events judged under similar rules as the FCI. The FBGDA will have such events March 5th to 8th at Salina, Kansas. Régis Toulet, an EB specialist judge and a FT judge for the SCC will be present.
For more information, visit

or plan a trip to France for the next "Nationale d'élevage": visit

If you only look at pictures, you won't learn what the FCI standard wants. Why not to present a dog at such events?

I think that this kind of judgement on the pioneers of the breed in the USA is more of a prejudice than a factual judgement. Mr Louis Thebaud, Jacques and René Joubert, Louis de la Flèche, Juan Pugibet were all active importers of French lines and often went to Europe and were very familiar with the breeding in France, and particularily in Bretagne (where Thebaud even had a house). So, contacts with the breed in France were not restricted to Stuyvesant, contrary to what is often circulated... And these pioneers did know more about the Epagneul Breton than some might think.

I do not know what was the knowledge of the pioneers, but obviously, no one of them were AKC judge. Since the first imports in the USA, the breed was judged by some "AKC All breed judges" that did not have a clue of what the breed should be. Stuvensant did talk about it in one of his texts. He did describe a group of judges used to the british breeds were seeking a Setter in the EB. An other group used to the Spaniels (the real flushers) were trying to find a Spaniel in the EB. In the field, the EB competes against the british breeds since the beginning. The working style of each breed seems to be unknown in North America since always. Since Stevansant, the ABC has no contact with the French CEB, the real parent club of the breed. After 60 years of no contact, you still think the breed is the same!!! Open your eyes, visit some events, travel...

Robert, I can translate more extracts from Munsch book if you like? Also Guy did not pick the pictures, I did, as I have his book which he thought I might like to read...There are various photos of very early Bretons, some good, some not so good. Remember the breed was very much in its infancy and I can again, if you want, list the infusion of various breeds which influenced the Breton.A bit of this and a bit of that sometimes. The list contains Gordon Setter, Welsh springer, sometimes a bit of pointer- disastrous apparently-and other setters too.
No wonder they could vary. Ideally the whole book needs translating, it is fascinating and educational. But would I waste my time?
Maybe it is best to let it go...
Patricia

Yes Patricia must take credit for the choice of photos.

She makes a good point about good and bad - even today not all dogs presented at a conformation show are 'good' by the standard - however they may be good by other measures - hunting ability, charm in the house for instance.

The interest of the book is the immediacy it gives to the history of the breed. A line in the sand at the date it was written. It would seem to me that the initial dogs chosen for export to America were those that were good hunters; these may not have met the breed standard to the letter, today is no different.

We must not look back to the past and say this is how it should now be - things move on - even Munsch points out that the size of all Breton fauna was on the small side relative to other areas.

We must not preserve our breed in 'aspic' or protect it as a 'heritage' breed. What is important is that we all keep trying to improve on what we have got - if we can, the best to the best.

David, I consider your remark to be addressed to me since Robert cites my question about Troll du Sulon ; this question has moreover not really generated many comments.

I think someone can respect a standard, FCI's one in this case, and can sometimes disagree with a judgement, don't you?

Many people seem to wonder about the Troll du Sulon's lips but they don't want to address the subject publicly, maybe because they have a fear of consequences (reprisal).

Nevertheless, I haven't got this fear when I wrote my question. Because of my naivete?
I think, I hope, that we can disagree with someone without being penalized on the first occasion.

I didn't want to provoke polemics with my question : I just wanted to know if someone else thinked that the Troll's head could give, via several media, a wrong idea of what an EB must look like.
But nobody has wanted to follow me : am I the only one against the consensus, the "one thinking" (pensée unique in french), in this forum.


Pour les non-anglophones :

David Campbell a écrit :
Robert,
vous dites que vous voulez respecter le standard FCI mais, dans le même message, vous doutez des qualités du meilleur chien de la nationale d'élevage du centenaire : souhaitez-vous vraiment respecter ce standard FCI? Essayez de respecter, au moins, la décision de plusieurs juges expérimentés du CEB.

Je prends pour moi la remarque que vous faites à Robert, David, d'autant plus que ce dernier a cité ma question au sujet de Troll du Sulon ; question qui n'a pas entraîné la loquacité de grand monde, d'ailleurs.

Je pense qu'on peut respecter un standard, celui de la FCI en l'occurence, sans pour autant approuver complètement tous les jugements, non?

Nombreux semblent être ceux qui se sont faits la remarque au sujet des lèvres de Troll, sans oser porter le sujet sur la place publique. Par peur d'éventuelles conséquences fâcheuses à leur encontre ? Peut-être.

En tout cas, cette crainte ne m'a pas effleuré l'esprit au moment de vous faire part de mon interrogation : naïveté de ma part?
Je crois en tout cas qu'on peut exprimer un avis divergent sans pour autant être "saqué" à la première occasion. Enfin, j'espère.
Ladite interrogation n'avait en tout cas par pour but de lancer une quelconque polémique : elle devait me conforter dans l'idée qu'il était dommage que la tête de Troll, diffusée dans maints media, donne une fausse image de ce à quoi doit ressembler un épagneul breton.
Mais elle n'a pas eu l'effet escompté : n'y a-t-il que des gens consensuels ou trop politiquement corrects sur ce forum?

I really don't think you have to be an AKC judge (nor a FCI judge for that matter) to be knowledgeable about a breed.

And yes, I do believe that it would be more profitable to work on heightening awareness among our North-American stud books authorities (CKC and AKC) and judges about the true history of the breed and its international standard, rather than throwing the baby with the bath water by asking that for a breed split, thus reducing a worthwhile gene pool.

As for your remarks concerning my lack of respect for the judging at the Nationale d'élevage du Centenaire, I think you should not try to put words in my mouth, as I was just trying to make a simple point, i.e. that not even the best Breton can claim to be perfect and to conform perfectly with the standard. And the point jb is trying to make is that it is a healthy reaction to speak out one's opinion and that people who really wish to work at bettering a breed should be open minded instead of acting as a board of censors. You suggest that I should travel, and may I suggest that you read a simple but very relevant tale from Hans Christian Andersen «Les habits neufs de l'Empereur» http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Habits ... l'empereur

"that not even the best Breton can claim to be perfect and to conform perfectly with the standard. "
To be able to say that you need to see such dog in the flesh. And have your hands on it. On a personal note, I have seen one or two dogs who really took my breath away. And I think you can find dogs very close to standard. JMO !
Patricia